Talk:Lake Vostok

Area conversion

In the fact box on the right, the conversion of square kilometers to square miles is wrong - the figure in the text is right. I don't know how to correct this, but someone should - it is not 9,750 sq. mi. but 6,060 sq. mi.Wlegro (talk) 16:52, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

"Research" vs. "Controversy"

Has the Controversy described in that section been resolved by the approved solution described in the Research section? 165.170.128.65 (talk) 18:20, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

It looks like it is an ongoing issue. Even with international agreements in place, respecting them is another issue. I think that once the Russians reach the water below, there will be a lot more noise and political posturing.BatteryIncluded (talk) 16:10, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

It's a very old story. "Fools rush in where angels fear to tread." Toddcs (talk) 18:44, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Article Tense

Three of the last five paragraphs of the article need to be updated for sentence tense as they appear to have been written in the present tense circa 2010/2011. Some of the information has now been overcome by events (i.e., the lake has been reached). I don't have enough knowledge of the subject to make these changes. Don'tKnowItAtAll (talk) 12:38, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Russian News Agency Story about Nazi base

Does anyone think that the Russian News Agency story about a Nazi base supposedly being located near Lake Vostok should be part of the article. Here is a link from Washington Post website about this: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/blogpost/post/lake-vostok-was-once-a-german-nazi-base-russian-news-agency-says/2012/02/07/gIQAKo9RwQ_blog.html. This news broke the same day the they reached the surface of the lake. Elmmapleoakpine (talk) 22:21, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Well, verifiability to a reliable source is there. Check. It's quite interesting, but I wouldn't give it more than a sentence of weight since it seems very peripheral to Lake Vostok. --Ds13 (talk) 07:34, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Really should be added to Antarctica#History or History of Antarctica as no evidence at hand of precise locations explored to indicate a connection with Lake Vostok. SkyMachine ⁽⁺⁺⁾ 08:42, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

I see no reason to add anything. The reliable source clearly indicates that it is a rumor and hence not reliable information in and of itself.--Nowa (talk) 16:56, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Just how was Nazi Germany supposed to have established a base there? Germany had its resources dedicated elsewhere 1933-45, as we all unfortunately know. This is just some silly rumor. HammerFilmFan (talk) 17:46, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

For a formal peer-reviewed evaluation of various stories about secret Nazi bases, go see:

Summerhayes, C., and P. Beeching, 2007, Hitler's Antarctic base: the myth and the reality. Polar Record. vol. 43 no. 1, pp.1–21. Paul H. (talk) 19:28, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

I think it is irrelevant to Lake Vostok and totally peripherial to the article, except that it is the Russians who have been drilling all these years and it was their news agency that ran the story. I though it might be noteable, mostly becuse of the peculiar action of the RNA. That being said, I am inclined not to include it, but would not object if someone else added it.Elmmapleoakpine (talk) 20:23, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

the peer-reviewed source cited above doesn't even mention Lake Vostok, and the WaPo blog post clearly frames any arctic Nazi base as rumor, nothing more. No reason to add any of that to our pretty article. Jtmorgan (talk) 07:28, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

420,000 years or 15 million years??

This section states:

"Ice samples from cores drilled close to the top of the lake have been assessed to be as old as 420,000 years, suggesting that the lake was sealed under the ice cap 15 million years ago."

If the ice closest to the lake is 420,000 years old, wouldn't that suggest that the lake had been sealed under the ice *420,000* years ago? How does 420 /thousand/ year old ice "suggest" a time-span of 15 /million/ years?

Refer to reference number 23 (Bell). The water in the lake is thought to be replenished by melting of ice under high pressure, and existing water refreezes and is carried away by the flow of the ice sheet. So none of the water is thought to be 15 million year old even though the lake is this age. SkyMachine ⁽⁺⁺⁾ 05:16, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

How do they date the ice?--Nowa (talk) 16:59, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

See Ice_core#Dating_cores, various methods, mostly radioisotope dating of oxygen and hydrogen in trapped air spaces in ice this old. More ice core data available here. SkyMachine ⁽⁺⁺⁾ 21:03, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

You linked to the right section, but most of what you said after that was non-sense. Firstly, the study of oxygen and hydrogen isotopes in ice cores focus on stable isotope concentrations (nothing radioactive at all) of the ice in the core (not the trapped air), and such studies are done primarily to infer paleoclimate. The stable isotopes can be used to establish correlations to other cores, but don't provide an age unless the reference you are correlating to is already dated by other means. Secondly, the most significant technique for direct dating cores is layer counting (using a variety of visual, electrical, and chemical properties that vary seasonally). When layers are too thin to count reliably, most dating is done by detecting volcanic layers of known age / composition that can be used as tie points. Layer counting, volcanic tie points, and observations of climate shifts, help to constrain models of ice flow dynamics and evolution that can fill in the intermediate spaces between times with dated horizons. Dragons flight (talk) 10:20, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks--Nowa (talk) 23:05, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

So, the actual point is that the oldest reliably dateable ice around the lake is ~420 kyr. But the ice around there flows (slowly). Even EPICA, which was at a dome, only got back to ~800 kyr. The age of the ice above the lake says nothing about the date of sealing of the lake. The 15 million years comes from the date of formation of the ice sheet William M. Connolley (talk) 11:02, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Contentious, unsupported addition.

The following sentence has been added to the end of the lede.

"It would appear that they have given very little thought to the possibility that our modern immune systems will be totally unable to deal with these ancient microbes (since the immune system has been evolving away from defending against such ancestral organisms to keep up with the advantages acquired by the pathogens themselves over time) and they may prove highly infectious to modern humans and result in a major extinction event or pandemic."

Two references are given: neither appear to contain anything to support the contention of this text, which seems to me to include unsupported and implausible speculation. Could someone with more knowledge of the relevant subjects please look into this and amend (or not) as appropriate? I myself am not comfortable with using the reversion process. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.66.165 (talk) 00:47, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

To clarify, no references were given for the addition(diff). This would be Original research and does not belong in the article. The life down there would not be adapted for surface conditions. SkyMachine ⁽⁺⁺⁾ 01:24, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

In fact there were two references, which have now been removed along with the offending text (for which thanks). One ref was to an article on the rt.com website, the other to one (with little text but a couple of hundred comments) on dailymail.co.uk (which I would not any case regard as a reliable source for any science news); neither had any text supporting the material now removed. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.66.161 (talk) 00:27, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

GA?

This article seems well developed; an interested editor could consider nominating it for a GA status. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me} 20:04, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree. The article is in good shape, so I nominated it. If the main editors disagree, they can always remove the banner and explain their decision. Regards.--Kürbis (✔) 11:50, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Helpful little template

I've dropped off a helpful little template for searching when I noticed the Russian state news agency had the lake listed as a trending story. The story is totally X-Files. I wonder what they will find down there. I'd drink it, whatever it is, oh yeah, alien morph. But I'd leave the article nice and professional sounding as it is. Penyulap _talk 08:13, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

I've removed the Rtnews template from the page, as it had raised concern because it pointed to a single trending news page, rather than a selection of trend pages, and after discussion in the appropriate places, it's easier to remove it than it is to add lots of other trend pages, as I don't know of any (don't have time to look). Penyulap ☏ 02:11, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

No extremophiles yet

Nothing from the uppermost ice cores. [1]. BatteryIncluded (talk) 18:58, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Update 2012

There is some new information in ru.wiki on subject. About drilling technology and results of ice lifeform analysing. Unfortunatly I cant translate it properly

5 февраля 2012 года, на глубине 3769,3 метров, учёные завершили бурение и достигли поверхности подлёдного озера[15]. Валерий Лукин, Интервью Лента.ру: Согласно новой технологии, предварительно создается эффект недокомпенсации давления столба заливочной жидкости в скважине, в результате чего за счет разницы давления вода из озера после проникновения поднимается наверх на величину недокомпенсации давления и благополучно замерзает в скважине. Потом, в следующем сезоне, она разбуривается, и эта свежезамороженная вода поступает для анализа в научные лаборатории. [править]Дальнейшие исследования Примерзшую к буру воду озера доставили для анализа в Лабораторию генетики эукариот Петербургского института ядерной физики (ПИЯФ). В сентябре 2012 г. Сергей Булат, заведующий группой криоастробиологии Лаборатории генетики эукариот, заявил: «Были найдены четыре вида бактерий, которые относятся к контаминантам (загрязняющим микроорганизмам). Такие же бактерии были найдены в буровой жидкости, а озерная вода с бура была обмыта этой грязной буровой жидкостью, еще два вида бактерий из образцов были найдены на человеке. То есть ничего интересного. Генеральное заключение такое: наверху (в снежном покрове) клеток нет, в озерном льду тоже нет клеточных популяций — там безжизненно. Вода может что-то содержать».[16] В следующем антарктическом сезоне (декабрь 2012 — январь 2013 года) замёрзший ледяной керн будет доставлен для анализа в Россию к середине мая 2013 года. Следующий этап, проникновение в озеро с его исследованием приборами, произойдет лишь в 2013—2014 годах.[17] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.162.105.245 (talk) 10:48, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

Google Translate (Russian to English): February 5, 2012, at a depth of 3769.3 meters, scientists completed the drilling and reached the surface under the ice of the lake [15]. Valery Lukin, Interview Lenta.ru: According to the new technology, creating the effect of a pre undercompensation pressure drilling fluid column in the well, resulting from the difference of pressure of the lake water rises up after penetration by the amount of pressure and undercompensation safely freezes well. Then, the following season, she drilled, and the water comes fresh frozen for analysis in scientific laboratories. [Edit] Further studies Primerzshuyu borax to the water of the lake was taken for analysis in the laboratory of genetics of eukaryotes Petersburg Institute of Nuclear Physics (PINP). In September 2012 Sergey Bulat, head of the Laboratory of Genetics Group krioastrobiologii eukaryotes, said, "we found four types of bacteria that are related to contaminants (contaminating micro-organisms). The same bacteria were found in the drilling fluid, and lake water with borax was obmyta this dirty drilling fluid, two species of bacteria from the samples were found on the man. That is nothing interesting. General conclusion is: the top (in snow) cells not in the lake ice also no cell populations - there lifeless. Water can contain something ". [16] The next Antarctic season (December 2012 - January 2013), frozen ice core analysis will be delivered to Russia by the middle of May 2013. The next stage, the penetration into the lake with his studies of the device, there will be only in 2013-2014. [17] - Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.162.105.245 (talk) 10:48, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

ЕЗЕРО ВОСТОК

Езерото Восток е най-голямото от почти 400 известни подледникови езера в Антарктика. Езерото се намира на южния полюс под Руската полярна база Восток която е на 3488 м надморско равнище. Повърхността на това сладководно езеро е около 4000 м под повърхността на леда, което е приблизително 500 m под морското равнище. То е измерено че е дълго 250 км и 50 км най-широката си точка и обхваща площ от 15690 кв. км и средна дълбочина от 344m. Езерото е разделено на две дълбоки басейни от билото. Течна вода над билото е около 200 м. Съществуването на подледниково езеро под полярната станция "Восток" е преположено от руския географ Андрей Капица, на базата на сеизмичните сондажи, направени по време на съветската антарктически експедиции през 1959 и 1964 г. за измерване на дебелината на ледената покривка. Продължаване на изследванията от руски и британски учени , потвърди за съществуването на езерото от JP Ридли ERS-1 лазерно измерване на височината. Езеро е пробито от руски учени на 5 февруари 2012 г.Леда който е над езерото може да проследи промяната на климата от 400,000 години, въпреки че самата вода на езерото може да е била изолирани за 15 до 25 милиона години.Веднага след като ледът е бил пробит, вода от основното езеро бликва в сондажа. Руски учени планират да се спусне сонда в езерото за събиране на водни проби и утайки от дъното. Предполага се че има необичайни форми на живот ,които могат да бъдат намерени в течнят слой на езерото. Езерото "Восток" съдържа среда, запечатана под леда в продължение на милиони години, в условия, които биха могли да наподобяват тези на покрита с лед океан Луна на Юпитер, Европа.

Google Translate (Bulgarian to English): Lake Vostok is the largest of the nearly 400 known podlednikovi lakes in Antarctica. The lake is located south pole under the Russian polar Vostok base which is 3,488 meters above sea level. The surface of this freshwater lake is about 4,000 meters below the surface of the ice, which is approximately 500 m below sea level. It is measured that is 250 kilometers long and 50 kilometers at its widest point and covers an area of ​​15,690 square kilometers and an average depth of 344m. The lake is divided into two deep basins of the ridge. Liquid water over the ridge is about 200 m The existence of a lake under podlednikovo polar station "Vostok" assumptions have been on Russian geographer Andrei Kapitsa, based on seismic drilling made during the Soviet Antarctic expeditions in 1959 and 1964 to measure the thickness of the ice sheet. Continuing research by Russian and British scientists confirmed the existence of the lake from JP Ridley ERS-1 laser measuring height. Lake is penetrated by Russian scientists on February 5, 2012 g.Leda which is above the lake can track climate change than 400,000 years, although the lake water itself may have been isolated for 15 to 25 million godini.Vednaga once the ice is been drilled, water from the main lake blikva into the borehole. Russian scientists plan to lower the probe into the lake to collect water and sediment samples from the bottom. It is assumed that there are unusual forms of life that can be found in the liquid layer of the lake. Lake "Vostok" contains medium sealed under the ice for millions of years in the MB

Източници

1^ a b "Antarctica's Lake Vostok Controversy". Antarctic and Southern Ocean Coalition. 2010. Retrieved 10 February 2011. 2^ a b "Subglacial Lake Facts". Ldeo.columbia.edu. Retrieved 7 February 2012.

lots of life

Lots of life found in Vostok. But half the article still talks as if its only predicted despite the latest developments.Leitmotiv (talk) 17:31, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Hello. The American-British team has been studying ice core samples, not the lake's liquid water. Microorganisms embedded in the deepest layers of the ice (5 million years old ice) are a [strong] indication of life in the water below, not proof. The Russians are the only ones that have sampled the water beneath the ice, so I would like to wait for them to publish their research before changing this article substantially. What do you think? Cheers, BatteryIncluded (talk) 15:05, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

You're right. My mistake. Article is misleading. Leitmotiv (talk) 17:31, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, the popular press are reporting inaccurate facts and I had to read the original research paper to get it straight:

1) The Russian team is the only team to have sampled the liquid lake water.

2) The American team has been studying [deep] ice cores, not lake water samples.

3) The American team reports 3,507 unique gene sequences ≠ 3,507 organisms. Briefly: each microorganism has thousands of genes, and after identifying 1,623 of the genetic sequences he was able to ID many of the microorganisms down to genus and/or species.

-Cheers, BatteryIncluded (talk) 03:13, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Hang on...I wonder if we'll need to include a controversy about this too:

• "The problem is that the DNA could simply be contamination from the drilling process, and not representative of Lake Vostok itself. The old ice cores were drilled to look for evidence of past climates buried in the ice, rather than for life, so the drilling equipment was not sterilised." (source.)
• "the idea that the pitch-dark lake might host complex animals is vastly premature, leading researchers caution." Claims of Lake Vostok fish get frosty response

-BatteryIncluded (talk) 04:37, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Malware Link Removal

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--Gary Dee 18:05, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

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Anecdotal rumors of animal encounter on Yahoo

I just today stumbled upon this: Russian scientist claims team battled creature under Antarctic ice. Apparently via rumble.com; September 25, 2020. I would be happy if this is dismantled as balderdash, or otherwise, if a second and/or reliable source can be found. I'm not in the thick of this topic and I trust most of you reading along have a better orientation of this field and can help; thanks in advance! --Klingon83 (talk) 10:42, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

Debunked - https://imgur.com/gallery/K4wXz
---> Darryl.P.Pike (talk) 06:15, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

Sources to improve this article

• Bulat, Sergey A. (2016-01-28). "Microbiology of the subglacial Lake Vostok: first results of borehole-frozen lake water analysis and prospects for searching for lake inhabitants". Philosophical Transaction of the Royal Society A: Mathmatical, Physical, and Engineering Sciences. Vol. 374 (Iss. 2059). Royal Publishing. ISSN 1471-2962. {{cite journal}}: |issue= has extra text (help); |volume= has extra text (help)

This source clarifies both bore holes, the events that occurred and what was found in the samples that were analyzed.
---> Darryl.P.Pike (talk) 06:46, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

Surface elevation

If the surface elevation of this lake is 500 meters below sea level then why do we call the Dead Sea as the lowest point on Earth? (about 400 meters below the sea level) Aminabzz (talk) 00:42, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

GA concerns

I am concerned that this article no longer meets the good articlce criteria. Some of my concerns are listed below:

• There is uncited text in the article, including entire paragraphs. Some of these have been marked with "citation needed" since May 2023 or December 2020.
• The lead is extreamly long and overly detailed. I suggest that this be reduced to four paragraphs.

Is anyone willing to address the above concerns, or should this go to WP:GAR? Z1720 (talk) 03:09, 29 December 2024 (UTC)